All you wanted to know about the Violin

I thought after five years of running theviolinman forum it was about time I sat down and looked over the thousands of posts I'd received. Hopefully by starting this blog page I can try to compile an interesting insight into the world of the Violin. Hence I've named the blog page 'All you wanted to know about the Violin'. Happy reading! Graham Welsh

Friday, February 24, 2006

Stradivarius posts
















lucasGuest 11/8/200409:02:07
Subject: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:does anybody know if i should have my 1716 stratovarius violin restored and what is its value

schoolgirl 11Guest 23/11/200412:20:23
RE: stratovarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:People, WHAT IS THE PRICE OF ANY STRATOVARIUS VIOLIN?!?!?!?! I HAVE SEARCHED THE WHOLE WIDE INTERNET AND CAN NOT FIND OUT!!!!

J.Doe Guest 30/12/200410:09:28
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Find an auction house, and get it rated by an historian.

Vic Guest 29/1/200505:44:06
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:any Strad is worth in the millions undoubtably the greatest violins ever made.

alastair Guest 29/1/200520:00:03
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Can I be fussy and say that it's Stradivarius, a Latinised version of the maker's name (which was Stradivari) and not 'Stratovarius'? Thanks. I feel better now.

Glenn Guest 12/2/200518:11:18
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Is a Stratovarius Showing label Milono 19 Twenty eight of any significant value ? Thanks.

Roger C Guest 16/2/200514:04:02
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I have a 1721 Stratovarius,in great shape,, Where can I check for an estimated value..

David Guest 19/2/200519:54:37
RE: stratovarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:To Anthony Zumpano... There is no such thing as a 1627 Stradivarius... simply because Antonio Stradivari was not born until 1644...

Roger C Guest 22/2/200504:15:05
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi David, Sorry, but you must have read my year wrong on the message I sent. My violin is a 1721 Stradivarius... My message,,"I have a 1721 Stradivarius,in great shape,, Where can I check for an estimated value.." Send me another reply if you would.. Thank You, Roger C. Abbott

andrea Guest 28/2/200502:36:03
StradivariusIP: LoggedMessage:Are there conterfeit stradivarius? Are there any marks of authenticity that would show that it is real? I found a stradivarius and am trying to determine if it's real... thank you! andrea

Roger Guest 28/2/200504:03:24
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Mr Andrea, I have had this Stradivarius violin checked with someone that had a book on them..All of the markings and date match to the book, even the change of the centurys from 1600's to the 1700's, and the scroll,, Thanks, Please reply... Roger Abbott..

David Guest 28/2/200516:20:22
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:It is usually very costly to get an appraisal on a stradivari...they have to go through the entire process of checking for fakes...and since people have become very good at making fakes...it gets harder and harder to figure out if a violin is a real or a fake...but if you do happen upon a real one...and it is in playable condition...it would sell in the millions...without a doubt...simply because of the fact that there are only...i think 64...accounted for in the entire world...and the fact that they are arguably the best sounding violins in the world...

Roger Guest 28/2/200516:46:13
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:David, I live in the middle of the state of Illinois..Do you know of anyone in Illinois I couild get in contact with to check this violin out,to see if it is the real thing and an appraisel maybe..Please reply,,, Thanks,, Roger..

Gordon Guest 08/3/200503:53:41
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:David, You are out by a magnitude of ten. It is thought by those who have researched the subject that he and his sons made c 1100 instruments, of which 650-700 remain (depending on who you ask). For the last couple of decades, the violins of Giuseppe Guarneri 'del Gesu' have commanded similar prices to those of Stradivari... who knows... in another few years, they may well be selling for more than your average Strad. Regards, Gordon

Katie Guest 14/3/200520:07:41
stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I am just curious to know, I have once heard that there are three Stradivarius violins that are "one of a kind" or rare in some way, and that the location of 2 are known, and the third a mystery. If this sounds familiar to anyone, please let me know. Also if I am incorrect, please correct me.

Roger Guest 15/3/200502:25:00
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:KATIE,, I have heard something on that order, that all strats are not are not known of there location. I don't know if mine is one of the rare ones or not..I have seen the cataloge where a lot of them are listed by dates.. The year of mine says, the location not known..I kow it is hard to find people that know anything about them....Please reply..

Gordon Guest 15/3/200502:33:58
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Katie, and Roger, There are many tales around, most of them apocryphal and have developed over the centuries to try to add mystery to this maker's 'art'. There really is no mystery - he was simply a first class maker who paid the greatest attention to the smallest detail. Many of Stradiuari's instruments were made in 'sets' as he fulfilled many commissions for royalty, nobility and the church, who sometimes ordered several instruments to make up a string ensemble. Trios (violin, viola and 'cello) and quartets (2 violins, 1 viola and 1 'cello) exist to this day in collections owned by royal families across Europe. There are several such sets owned by the Russian government. It is possible that you have heard of a set of three violins that were ordered by someone, and through the centuries one of them has been broken, stolen, or given away to a loyal court musician as a retirement gift. Remember that it is really only since the end of WW2 that the instruments of this maker started realising such high auction prices. Prior to the war, many quite ordinary musicians were playing on them. Even today, you don't need to be a merchant banker to own one... in the UK, the Lindsays String Quartet is made up of musicians who play Stradiuaris. The two violinists own Strads, I am almost sure that the viola is a Strad, and the 'cellist owns a Roggieri. Most of the tales that abound do so because people like to think that 'one is still out there'! Maybe there is, hidden in a dark corner, somewhere, not been played for the last two centuries... if so, it will probably be quite interesting to see if it still has a voice, or whether it has lost it forever. There is one thing for sure, if it had been anywhere near a luthier since about 1800, it will already be known to be a Strad and will have been authenticated. There is one of his violins that is 'one of a kind', and if you are ever in Oxford, go to the Ashmolean Museum and upstairs in the Hill room, you can see it in its glass case... 'Le Messie' (The Messiah). It is estimated that this violin would fetch over 10 million GBP in auction, but no-one will ever know, since it was bequeathed to the museum by the Hill family, with the caveat that it will never be removed from its case and played. Regards, Gordon

Don Guest 24/3/200501:39:27
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:What can you tell me about a violin with a label inside that reads: Antonius Stradiuarius Cremonensis Faciebat Anno 17

Gordon Guest 24/3/200502:43:11
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Don, Exactly the same as I've told umpteen people who have asked the same question! Many people on this board spend a lot of their valuable time answering the 'same old question'! We do it freely, without charge, and without even asking for thanks. A MESSAGE TO THOSE WHO HAVE THE 'SAME OLD QUESTION'... Before asking the 'same old question', could people PLEASE do a bit of their own research, by at least taking the trouble to read forgoing posts and educating themselves, before expecting others to waste their valuable time repeating that which has already been answered? Please? Regards Gordon

Interested KathyGuest 02/4/200505:28:16
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I live near Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Is there a place near here where I can have it looked at if it is a real Stratovarius and possibly sell it?

Dorothy Guest 02/4/200506:34:29
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Have you tried your local Yellow Pages? I think not, or you would know the answer. I think if you read what Gordon and others have said here, if your violin has a label that says Stratovarius, it must be a fake. The word is Stradivarius, and nothing else. NO OTHER SPELLING. I am an avid reader of these pages and I SINCERELY thank those like Gordon who give up their time to answer genuine questions, and even bother to reply to those who can not be bothered to read the messages that go before. Thanks to reading the wealth of information and experience here, I am now educated. Maybe others should do that, too?

Roger Guest 02/4/200507:31:42
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Dorothy, Thanks for information on the spelling of Stradivaris.. I got the violin out and that is the way it is spelled.. I am not the worlds best typer..Ha..Thanks again for infor... Roger,.,

Gordon Guest 02/4/200508:52:34
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Dorothy, I am pleased that at least someone is gaining knowledge and willing to read 'that which has been said before'. As a violin maker and restorer, it never ceases to amaze me that people know so little about what they have. I incude so-called professional players here, too! You wouldn't believe the things I have heard some people claim, things like 'This violin has been in my family for over 200 years!' when it is so obviously a mid-1900's German or Czech factory fiddle... or perhaps you can believe it! Only yesterday, I offered a 1950's Czech fiddle to a customer who plays 'trad' Irish, Scottish and Blue-Grass fiddle music. He wanted something that he could take down to the pub with him and it not matter if it got splashed with beer. My asking price, a very reasonable 200 GBP, considering the good 'trad' sound it produced when fitted with steel strings, was met by his peering through the bass sound hole and exclaiming "What! 200 quid for a Strad? Are you serious, Gordon?" I then laid before him an Italian, a French, two German (one old hand-made and one more recent factory-made), and old English, a 1960's Czech, and a Chinese Lark violin, and asked him to firstly identify the countries of origin, and secondly to place them in order of value. He had no idea at all - the most valuable (according to him) was the typical factory made German copy of a Nicolo Amati, basing his decision solely on the ticket, even though it clearly states "Made in Germany". The only one he got right was the Chinese Lark, which he correctly said was worth next to nothing! (and probably only then because it has the Lark ticket inside). The old 'lion head'c.1720's Georg (or perhaps son Matthias) Aman, Augsburg, Germany he placed as a French violin c.1900, worth only 1,000 GBP. How wrong is that! OK, there is no ticket in the violin, but it is SO Aman in every way, size, shape, soundhole profile, head carving, colour and type of varnish (either father or son, they both worked in a similar fashion) and this one is definitely by one of them, but he had no idea as to its origin or value. This is typical, I have found, of many violinists. As a rule, a concert violinist with a good instrument will know pretty well who made it, where it was made, and roughly how much it is worth in today's market. This is probably because they have paid a great deal of money for it, and thus they have made it their business to know these things. BUT... most violinists know little! This 'little knowledge' can, indeed, be a 'dangerous thing', especially when it relates to someone who has but a cheap copy of a well-known maker, but who 'THINKS' that they have an original. Hence, the majority of posts on Graham's message board. OK, so I have said my piece. I sincerely hope that someone takes the time to read this rather long message, in the wish that it may just make someone want to 'DO THEIR OWN RESEARCH' rather than glibly posting messages about things that have been reported upon by both myself and by others (more knowledgeable than I). Although nobody can be an 'expert' at everything, we all have, perhaps, a little 'expert' knowledge in a particular field, and by probing the message boards thoroughly, and stitching together the bits of 'expert' knowledge, each one of us can improve our understanding of this great instrument, the violin, and its family. There is a wealth of knowledge on these message boards, freely available to those who have the time, patience and lust for knowledge... PLEASE READ THEM! Kindest regards, Gordon

Evelyne Guest 13/4/200518:53:35
RE: stradivarius loan for great competitionIP: LoggedMessage:I am looking for a stradivarius (or guarnerius or high class equivalent) violin for a loan to a young violinist who is trying his luck at the famous Reine Elizabeth violin competition in Brussels next month. He already finished a semi-finalist and would very much like to win it this time, but he plays his own childhood violin... He cannot afford renting one (2,000 euros or so). Could anybody help him? He finished the Paris National Conservatory and Julliard School in New York.Thank you for your help!

Rudi Guest 10/5/200508:13:55
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:We have a stratovarius 1746 for sale in Scandinavia

Gordon Guest 10/5/200510:27:36
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Good for you, Rudi! Stradiuari not only changed his name to Stradivari, but made this one nine years after his death, then? Or maybe this one is a cross between a Stradiuari violin and a Stratocaster guitar? The mind boggles! Gordon

Rudi Guest 10/5/200519:45:53
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Thanks for your reply Gordon! First the date innside the violin is 1732, with reference to the name spelling i allready had problems with that getting into your page true gogle. It's followed by a wouden violinbox with red fluwel inside. The violin allso don`t have strings and a minor defect on the holders. Kind regards, Rudi

Karen Guest 15/5/200507:15:14
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:is there any truth to the fact that Stratovarius also made mandolins and what are they worh today if he did? sincerely, Karen

Gordon Guest 15/5/200510:17:18
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Karen, If you care to read my last message, you'll see that Stratovarius made nothing. The name is Stradiuari. He made violins, violas, 'cellos, guitars and harps, but not, I believe, mandolins. Regards, Gordon

Sharon Guest 12/6/200503:13:21
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Well apparently there are only 23 original strats in the world.. and they are all accounted for. So if you don't know that it is worth a kazillion dollars then it's a remake. There were many, many, many distributed around the world ..not worth a whole lot of money but you never know I guess if it's in real good shape?? Just took one in .. not in real good shape.. musty as well but was worth $150 Canadian money.. Hope that helps you out.

Gordon Guest 12/6/200504:39:31
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Sharon, There may, indeed be only 23 original Strats in the world, whatever a Strat is! On the othe hand, if you mean Strad, as in an original instrument from the workshops of Antonio Stradiuari, I think you will find that you are way off mark - there are about 650-700 accounted for out of a total estimate of around 1100 made (depending on who you ask - opinions vary a little). Had he made only 23, then I guess he would have found it very hard making a living for the 80 years or so that he was a violin maker, and with only 23 to his credit, wouldn't be anything like as famous as he bacame in his lifetime, let alone now. Depending on the state of preservation, you don't need to have a million in the bank to own one, eother. They sell for as little (little?) as 150,000 pounds, and as high as well over a million. Regards, Gordon

Sharon Guest 12/6/200506:05:26
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I guess I should say that there were many violins made with the strad stamp inside but were just Made by a factory...That's what ours was.

Sharon Guest 12/6/200506:11:01
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Thanks Gordon for your info.. Sorry I didn't mean he only made 23. .Guess it did look that way. What I meant to say is what I have been told is that there is only 23 accounted for as originals in the world. But I'll go back with your info and see what happens

Juliet Guest 15/6/200522:34:28
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Wow.. it is quite amazing to see how many people get confused with Stradivarius and Stratovarius. Well I guess they do sound similar. Anyways, I would like to know a (rough) value of a 1697 Carlo Giuseppe Testore (violin). in dollars please. im not familiar with the british pounds.
Juliet Guest 15/6/200522:53:34
violinIP: LoggedMessage:Does anyone know the rough value of a 1697 Carlo Giuseppe Testore violin?

Gordon Guest 16/6/200503:46:41
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Juliet, It wouldn't matter whether I told you in pounds or dollars, since I would be telling you the value of a GENUINE Testore, and not the value of the copy that yuou are enquiring about. I suggest you pay a visit to the web sites of the bigger auction houses and take a look in their historical results. You may be lucky and find a Testore that has gone under the hammer. By the way, there are roughly 1.85 of your dollars to one of my GBP, but if you want to know exactly, there are sites out there that will tell you that, too. I guess I'm saying that you might do your own research. Regards, Gordon

Gordon Guest 16/6/200510:30:59
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Between 25 and 750 pounds sterling, depending on which factory made it, and how it sounds when played. Regards, Gordon

Juliet Guest 17/6/200501:11:07
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I am asking about the price of the genuine Testore (i don't own one and im not thinking about buying one) I simply wanna ask if you DO know. and if u don't u dnt hav to answer it. Then does anyone know the sites of the bigger auctions (cuz i seriously don't know

GordonGuest 17/6/200501:30:37
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:The internet is crammed with very good search engines just waiting to answer your qestion. Try googling the words Sothebys Bonhams Christies and see what you come up with.
PatriciaGuest 17/6/200508:13:32
Mirecourt JTL?IP: LoggedMessage:My son has just been lent a 3/4 violin with an unknown history. It is in good condition after some work and sounds gorgeous. We are curious about its origins. It came in a black wooden ancient looking "coffin". Inside is the usual: "Copie de Strad...Anno 1721" but there are no other indications as to where it was made except for the letter "B". I assume it is French, thus likely Mirecourt but have scanned the internet and not got much further. I'm a clarinet player so this is out of my expertise. If anyone knows more, it would add to the fun of playing it to know a bit more about its history. I intend to have it appraised for insurance purposes - I presume this is sensible. Thanks!

GordonGuest 17/6/200511:31:50
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Patricia, If it is a JTL violin it will indicate this on the label somewhere, with either JTL or the full Jerome Thibouville Lamy. The fact that it states 'Copie de' is indicative of French origin, but it must be said that many German violins also have this, just to make them 'look' French. The coffin case (if original to the violin) could indicate either French, German or Czech, from c.1880-1900 or slightly beyond. An appraisor will tell you straight away whether it is French or not. As a 3/4 size it is likely to be somewhat less in value than its equivalent full sized violin, but having said that, it could still be worth up to 1000 GBP, so it may be a wise move to let someone see it. Good luck and regards, Gordon

Patricia Guest 17/6/200512:42:01
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Thanks for the thoughtful reply and for sharing your expertise. -Patricia

Billy Guest 18/6/200501:37:44
antonius stradiuarius cremonensisIP: LoggedMessage:HI GORDON ;PATRICIA AND ALL Which is most popular auctions house in ENGLAND OR IN THE WORLD (FOR INSTRUMENTS OR ,,,,)??? I KNOW FOR ONE VIOLIN WITH LABEL INSIDE ANTONIUS STRADIUARIUS CREMONENSIS FACIEBAT ANNO 1734 and with littl sign AS with simbol

BillyGuest 18/6/200501:42:49
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:thanks GORDON Provision is yours ,,,,i was se YOURS MESSAGE ABOUT auctions houses SOTHEBYS BONHAMS AND CHRISTIES BEST REGARDS

TeresaGuest 30/6/200512:43:46
RE: stradivarius violin?IP: LoggedMessage:Hello- could someone please tell me if a student model was every made, I guess have one and it is marked w/stradivarius etc. please reply

GordonGuest 30/6/200513:26:47
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Teresa, Student models of Strad violins have been made thoughout the last 125 year. Basically, since around 1880, there have been millions of Strad copies made throughout Europe and the far east, that can only be classed as being student models, as they are totally unsuitable for advanced players. As for genuine Strads, then there are examples of smaller models around, roughly 3/4 size, but they are few and far between. Yours will be one of the millions of copies out there, you can rest assured on that point. Regards, Gordon

CindyGuest 30/7/200510:01:11
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I have a half violin that is an Antinius Stradivarious Cremonerisos Faciecat Anno 1721 made in Germany with a picture of a globe with a violin in the center and underneath it is Ztamisos. The bow is Gurro Germany and the case is old. The person that left us the violin stated his grandfather had brought it over to the U.S. when he was a small boy. He was 77 when he died in 1974 or 75 and I have had it ever since. I have tried finding out about this violin but haven't been able to find out anything. Even if it is worth anything or not. So could you please let me know. Thank You. I'd appreciate it very much. Cindy

GordonGuest 30/7/200510:56:34
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Cindy, You have been told a fairy story, at least in part. It's not possible for it to be c.1900 at your story suggests. It is most likely to be c. 1920's, as prior to the 1914-18 war, the word Saxony or Sachsen would have been used, not the word Germany. So we now have a violin made in a German factory, c.1920 or later. One thing is for sure - you won't find out which factory made it. The second thing is that it will have a low monetary value, anything from $50 to $300 US (just check out eBay and see what they are going for there, because that's the sort of market-place for this type of mass-produced fiddle). Regards, Gordon

alastairGuest 02/8/200505:44:30
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I think you mean 'stradivarius' violin. This is named after Antonio Stradivari, the most famous of all violin makers, who lived in Cremona in Italy 300 years ago. The word 'Stradivarius' is a Latinised version of his surname, used by him on the labels of his violins. Many, many copies - hundreds of thousands- of his instruments have been made. Some are good, many are not. As for a 'stratovarius' violin, it sounds like something the Klingons may have used on 'Star Trek'. I think you have misread the label. The only person who can tell you whether your violin is good or not is an expert, and he/she will have to examine it. This is one case where the Internet cannot really help much!

GordonGuest 02/8/200507:02:22
RE: stratovarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Alastair, And I think you mean Stradiuari (with a 'u'), not Stradivari (with a 'v'). Until the very last years of his life, his tickets read Stradiuari, the Cremona town records show him as Stradiuari, and his hand-written repair tickets are in the name Stradiuari. I guess it must be Stradiuari, then. One case where the Internet did help you :o) Regards, Gordon

Vincenzo madonia Guest 02/8/200513:43:52
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hello everyone, You can get a pretty good explenation on the real thing and the copys of a real strat. The book store! Borders or B&N. Look for books on the history of the strat.You'll find out that all the originals have been accounted for But only 1, that was stollen or lost in a fire.The value $1,600,000.oo. Thats the approx value for the real thing . No numbers on the copys but they do have a value. As for The copys! The number 17 shows the centry and also shows it's a copy. Following the number 17 would be a hand written number showing the number in order of witch the violin was completed, Those are the real COPYS! You can get the truth and read all about it at the book store. I myself have a copy with no number after the 17 . Makes it even harder. Thanks, your custom Guitar builder, Vince

Jack W. NottinghamGuest 18/8/200513:43:17
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Sirs:..we acquired 2 violins from our Fathers..one states: Wilhelm Duerer Fecit Eisleben Anno 1901 Registered. The other states " Falero Patent Angem ADORF l./v. Could you please tell us if these are related to the Statovarius Violin or if they are at all worth anything.

Jerry Guest 28/8/200521:07:36
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I have a 1721 stratoverius violin, can anyone tell me what it may be worth.

Gordon Guest 28/8/200521:31:32
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:First Jack, If you have given all the information on the tickets, how can they be related to a Stradiuari model. They may look similar but unless it states they are copies, then the probability is that they are not modelled on a Stradiuari violin. Now Jerry, If the ticket states "Stratoverius", probably nothing as the idiot who made it couldn't even spell his name properly, let alone copy one of his violins. Gordon

Vanessa Guest 29/8/200515:55:14
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:my mother aquired a 1724 strativarious after her fathers death. i was wondering how much it is worth, we live in nebraska and there arent many real specialists here to look at it. any help would be appreciated.

Jon Guest 30/8/200504:27:15
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I guess Leo Fender must have made these "Stratovarius" and "Strativarius" instruments before he finally got the hang of things and designed his famous Stratocaster. ;-) Everyone else might find http://www.maestronet.com/history/index.cfm useful for auction prices. Of course retail prices will be considerably higher, reflecting the work that many of these instruments require before they are fully playable. There is, of course, no real alternative to showing your Violin to a professionally trained luthier if you want to have it identified and valued. The very least weight of all should be placed upon the label when identifying a Violin family instrument. It was standard practice for "trade instruments" to carry facsimile labels of the instrument that they were loosely based upon. These instruments have been produced in huge quantities, very many of them over a hundred years ago - and so now having a genuine look of age to them.

Gordon Guest 30/8/200511:09:18
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Thank you, Jon, But will they listen? I doubt it! But thanks anyway! Regards, Gordon

Jim Guest 02/9/200511:05:11
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:The last thing a comptetent appraiser will do in the case of rare violins is look at the label. You always start with the instrument. The label comes last, if you get that far.

Gordon Guest 02/9/200511:33:46
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Ah, Jim, another sound of mind, in touch with reality, and cognisent of the world around him! Please spread the word... I am very fast tiring of trying to do so! It seems that 95% of the western world's population either can't read at all, or can't understand simple English, or can't be bothered to read previous posts... or if they can read, they simply wish to appear stupid and as if they can't read at all, and feel that they must ask the same question, even though it's already been answered, several times. My warmest regards, Gordon

Kevin Violette Guest 08/9/200503:12:00
Stradivarius CopyIP: LoggedMessage:To those wishing to know the value of a violin 'from Grandma's attic' with a label that reads 'Antonius Stradiuarius Cremonensis Faciebat Anno 17__', the answer is about $25 American---that's what I paid for mine. I now have a copy of a Stradivarius AND a copy of a Stratocaster. And they both sound good! KV PS---Don't any of you people have spell check?

Darlene Huff Guest 09/9/200511:28:25
RE:Stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I have read your message board with laughter and interest. My violin says Antonius Stradiuarius Cremonenfis Faciebal Anno 1716 and is stamped with a double round circle with a cross at the top and A S at the bottom. The back has Conservator Violin on it. Is this one of the 1100 that was made by his sons? Or his company? Or are these just forgeries that were done in Europe? Thanks, Darlene

Gordon Burns Guest 09/9/200512:24:24
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I am pleased you can raise a smile at other posts, since it will help you raise a smile at this one :o) Definitely not by him, or his sons. Yours is a copy from the period 1890-1920, most probably, and probably German in origin. Still smiling? I think you probably are! :o) Regards, Gordon

Brad Guest 16/10/200510:48:06
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Wow, Kevin you are amazed just as much as I am concerning the inablity of most to spell! I laughed at the mispelled posts, misplaced ethics and repeat questions. Gordon, sorry for your troubles. You are the only solid foundation to this mad inquisition.

Rose Guest 16/10/200517:10:21
RE: stradivarius faciebat annoIP: LoggedMessage:ive read your board notes this is a antonius stradinarius cremonensis faciebat anno 17 hand inlaid mother of pearl in diamond shapes across the back the bridge has inlaid pearl roses with a very specific trim all the way around ive tried to reasearch any like it so far i have found none please let me know i have pictures of it thanks

Marge Guest 20/10/200505:05:11
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:General Information on Obtaining Authentication and Appraisal of Violins PLEASE DO NOT SEND YOUR INSTRUMENT TO THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION Violins by famous makers such as Stradivari, Guarneri, Maggini, Amati, or Stainer had numerous followers and imitators. Often a disciple placed a facsimile label in his violin to acknowledge or honor the master whose model had inspired his work. Also, commercially made instruments often bear facsimile labels to identify the model of the product. Copies made after 1891 may also have a country of origin printed in English at the bottom of the label, such as "Made in Czechoslovakia", or simply "Germany". Such identification was required by United States regulations on imported goods. The presence of a label with a famous maker name or date has no bearing on whether the instrument is genuine. Thousands upon thousands of violins were made in the 19th century as inexpensive copies of the products of great masters of the 17th and 18th centuries. At that time, the purchaser knew he was buying an inexpensive violin and accepted the label as a reference to its derivation. Catalogs from the period show that these instruments were advertised for less than $10. As people rediscover these instruments today, the knowledge of where they came from is lost, and the labels can be misleading. A violin's authenticity (i.e., whether it is genuinely the product of the maker whose label or signature it bears) can only be determined through comparative study of design, model, wood characteristics, and varnish texture. This expertise is gained through examination of hundreds or even thousands of instruments, and there is no substitute for an experienced eye. The Smithsonian Institution, as a matter of legal and ethical policy, does not determine the monetary value of musical instruments. For such an appraisal, we recommend that you have your instrument examined by a reliable violin dealer in your area. Although we are not allowed to recommend a particular appraiser, we suggest you contact the American Federation of Violin and Bow Makers, Inc. to obtain a membership list. If there is no maker convenient to your area, you may elect to send to one of these members three black-and-white photographs of your violin showing straight-on front, side, and back views of the instrument. VIOLINS Just thought I'd share this interesting write-up from the Smithsonian Institute. Thank-you everyone for the valuable information you have posted for free!!! Marge

Aaron Clay Guest 20/10/200508:07:46
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:my god people...there are 1520 strads made total and that is VIOLINS he also made cellos, harps, etc and an estimate for a NAMED insturment would be around 400,000$-4,000,000$ for un-named- 100,000-250,000 i personally own a strad, although i prefer rumbargi to them, as strads have a bit overbearing sound get it appraised, then put it in a well known auction aaron clay-the presidents own

Gordon M Burns Guest 20/10/200509:58:54
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:A little out on the figures, there, Aaron. All the experts agree on around 1100 instruments in total (the guitars and harps represent an insignificant fraction of the total made). Of these, those experts reckon around 650 still survive today. I'd be interested in your point of reference regarding your figures. Regards, Gordon

Aaron Clay Guest 20/10/200516:43:39
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:well gordon, there is the 1100 currently made, but not all SURVIVE, the reference that i presently go by, is the prague university of london then again, no universtity, organaziation, or otherwise has done a complete survey of all insruments, as there are thousands upon thousands of replicas

Toni Guest 20/10/200517:06:33
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:It's interesting that you own a Strad but don't like the sound of it much - where did you have it authenticated? How did you come by it? Usually I take the "I own a genuine Strad" comments with a pinch of salt, but I note that you are a professional musician, albeit a bassist rather than a violinist - do you play the violin to a professional level too? Regards, Toni

Aaron Clay Guest 21/10/200503:16:34
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:i do not play the violin quite as much as the bass per say, but accomplished it to the level of decency. To say, that the kabelevsky cpncerto in C (note my horriable russian spelling), and the mendelssohn concerto. As a more jazz musician, strads dont have the same "feel" to them, but in a orchestra or chamber group , of course they are the best. I recieved mine for $632,000, although, i did take out a loan :) I had it authenticated by the chamber music of society of the lincoln center

ToniGuest 21/10/200503:24:03
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hooray, you must be the first person on here who really DOES own a Strad! It's fascinating to hear from you :) If you don't play it much yourself, do you lend it out to other professionals?

Gordon M BurnsGuest 21/10/200503:40:34
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I'd be interested to know the methods employed by the Lincoln Centre to authenticate your violin. If I were to have such a violin authenticated, I'd expect to receive a comprehensive research document, detailing dendrochronology results, comparison results (measurements and vital statistics apropos other known examples from that year) and a full description of it, detailing all the 'niceties' that make it unmistakably by that maker. I take it that this Society has an accredited appraisor with sufficient professional standing to put his/her reputation on the line to provide this information in certificate form? Also, I guess that you would not want to shell out $632,000 on a gamble, so I presume there were other authentication papers with it at the time, issued during the last 100 years or so, by internationally well-respected appraisors, such as Hill, Beare or Wurlitzer? Warmest regards, Gordon

Aaron ClayGuest 21/10/200506:51:29
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:yes, i do have authentication papers with it, but of course i wanted to make sure THOSE also wernt fake papers. So i basically did my own research at the internatinal institution of music sites to look at pictures of others, compared, then asked Andrew Dipper to take a look at it

Jamie DayGuest 23/10/200522:23:37
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:We have a stradivarius violin were can we get in valued in England and maybe in Bedfordshire

P-manGuest 13/11/200502:18:10
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Gordon, Why are you such a bitter person? If replying to these e-mails annoy you so much then simply stop replying and quit being a jerk. I am surprised that so many of the people writing in haven't told you off yet. I came across this site doing "MY OWN RESEARCH" and though you appear to be knowledgeable you are still a jerk and I wouldn't ask you what time it is. You have yourself a lovely day. P-man

Gordon M BurnsGuest 13/11/200503:15:03
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Thank you, P-man, who posts without the common courtesy of revealing his true identity (David Perryman, maybe?). So, when was the last time you contributed anything worthwhile to this forum? Gordon

Lyndon J TaylorGuest 13/11/200504:54:58
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:How about we make these arguments a bit more civil and stop being so quick to throw insults this is a forum for grown adults, and anyone that gets involved in this name calling is doing a disservice to Graham Welsh, our host and good friend of mine thanks to my international telphone plan, please gordon,sincerly Lyndon J Taylor

P-manGuest 13/11/200512:04:29
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:To Mr. Burns, This is the first time I have been on your prescious forum, but I don't have to be a violin expert to tell when someone is a megalomaniac.I have no reason to hide my identity. To Mr. Taylor, I agree with you, this is a forum for grown adults that is why you and Mr. Gordon you should show more respect to you fellow man instead of talking down to people in your replies. I am impressed with your expertise on the subject at hand. I have just recently learned that my Mother has a Stadivarius made in the 1700's and I know nothing about it. Thanks to this site and others I have learned alot in the last few days. Thank you Mr. Welsh and others who have shared their knowledge I meant no disrespect to the web host, you have a very educational site and I look forward to revisiting it when I find out more about my Mother's violin. P-man

Gordon M BurnsGuest 13/11/200512:18:16
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:This is not my forum. I am here as a visitor, just as you are. I log in to pass on my knowledge to those who ask the right questions... but as someone commented a little while ago, this is not a pay-per-response service, it comes for free, and benefits ONLY the person asking, not the one replying, so don't expect us to beg and scrape and fall over ourselves to be polite. We spend many, many hours here throughout the week, reading every post, so isn't it only fair to ask that people respect our time and not post the same questions about the same subject repeatedly and ad nausium? I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask. And just to show that there's no hard feelings, you say you know nothing about your mum's 1700s Stradivari violin... well I'll tell you something... it's not 1700s and it's not a Stradivari. Kindest regards, Gordon

P-manGuest 13/11/200513:12:53
RE: stratovarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Thanks for your opinion, but no thanks. I didn't ask. P-man

Lyndon J TaylorGuest 13/11/200517:23:42
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:If I'm talking down to people in my replies I sincerly apologize, Lyndon

JulietGuest 15/11/200501:31:08
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I am sadly not in a position to buy my just-got-grade VI daughter a strad - but I am seeking an honest, sweet-sounding instrument, preferably antique rather than new, at a FAIR price. So far, of many we have tried, the only one she really likes is from a small business which obviously is sincere in believing it to be French - but, when I took the violin to another dealer he told me it was undoubtedly German and worth half or less of what she wanted for it. I don't mind paying a small premium for an instrument we both like the sound of, but this is too worrying for me.I have tried hard to educate myself but I am simply not up to being certain about identifying antique violins. One auction house declined to help when I told them I was looking to buy the violin myself rather than sell it through them! Other dealers are more interested in selling me their own wares than assessing this one. The truth is, the upper registers of many violins at this sort of price (£1300-1500) are thin and even unpleasant. Does anyone have sensible advice for me please? Maybe I should just lie to the next auctioneer, but it goes against the grain to deceive to get a straight, honest answer.

Graham Welsh OwnerGuest 15/11/200502:07:27
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:You could try my fair 'Northern prices' or is that too simple. Let me know if I can help you in any way. Thanks Graham

Gordon M BurnsGuest 15/11/200506:00:47
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Juliet, I agree with Graham, in that prices north of Watford are normally quite different from those seen in the London area, and that prices seen in small dealerships are normally lower than those in larger ones. Having said that, there are many more people selling violins than come under the category of 'dealer'. Try finding your local luthiers (ask your daughter's violin teacher for the names of them - she/he is bound to know at least one, and probably many more). Many luthiers have some extremely nice, older instruments for sale; ones they have bought in and restored, taken in as part-exchanges when selling one of their own instruments, etc. Many such people do what they do not out of a desire to become rich (we all know that violin makers need to be seriously dead before their instruments become too expensive to buy). Most of them are in this game because of their love of the instrument, and their innate need to inject something of themselves into the centuries-old tradition. Personally, I would rather make no money at all on a violin and see it go to a gifted young player, than to hold out and be so inflexible that the young player is denied a good instrument whilst I wait for a richer, and maybe not so talented player to give me a few pounds more for it. I think you'll find that I'm not the only luthier who thinks in this way - I have met many of them. I note your preference for an antique violin over a new one. Whilst I can see your reasoning, especially given your price-range, by increasing your range to £2,000-£2,500 you will be in the area sufficient to buy a well-made modern English violin that will compete tonally with most anything from 100-150 years ago. So my advice is to first check out those who are into this art for love, and not for financial reward. This is probably your best chance of getting the fairest deal. (By the way, I include Graham Welsh in the 'love' category, above). Warmest regards, and good luck, Gordon

P-manGuest 15/11/200507:04:46
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:What does the "lion's head" stamp mean? P-man

ToniGuest 15/11/200507:17:41
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Can you describe the "lions head stamp" in more detail please, P-man?

P-manGuest 15/11/200507:24:21
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Let me call my Mother tomorrow and inquire further. She lives about 1000 miles from me. P-man

j doroughGuest 27/11/200504:58:54
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:MY GRANDMOTHER HAD ONE OF THESE VIOLINS. IT MUST HAVE BELONG TO TH JOHN THARP FAMILY. PLEASE NOTIFY ME IF KNOW ANYTHING. AFTER MY GRANDMOTHER DIED IT DISAPPEARED.

Aaron ClayGuest 27/11/200510:21:53
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:PLEASE DONT TYPE IN ALL CAPS! IT GETS REALLY ANNOYING TO THOSE OF US PEOPLE WHO ACUALLY KNOW HOW TO POST ON A FORUM. aaron clay- the presidents own

Gordon M BurnsGuest 27/11/200513:00:51
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:J Dorough, Yes, please don't SHOUT. Forum protocol dictates polite, lower-case characters. Please explain the reference to John Tharp Family. If your instrument is of the standard discussed on this particular board of the forum, personally, I would consider its disappearance a blessing! Regards, Gordon

michaelGuest 30/11/200516:09:00
deepest sympathy for GordonIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Gordon I am a 23 year old from Texas struggling my way into Pharmacy school and stumbled upon your page. My grandfather has a violin made by Antonius Stradiuarius I dont know the year but it will be willed to me when he dies. I realize that I should learn more on the subject. This post is not much more than an outreach to say hello from Texas. I wish that more of the people posting on this page would just research before they post such mindless babble and waste an educated mind. Sincerely MD

Aaron ClayGuest 01/12/200510:14:42
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:right, such as the fact that it is Antonius Stradavari... Concert with NY Philharmonic this evening!

Gordon M BurnsGuest 01/12/200511:58:31
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:MICHAEL: Hi Michael. Good luck with your studies. How sure are you that your grandfather's violin is genuine and not 'just another copy', as are over 99.9998% of those bearing his ticket (or a facsimile of his ticket, to be more precise)? It has been estimated that between 1880 and 1920, around 60,000 trade violins per year emerged from the factories in Germany. Most of them bore the ticket of Antonio Stradiuari. From this estimated 1.2 million, when weighed against the output of GENUINE Strads (estimated at around 850 violins, plus other instruments, taking the total to around 1,100 and of the 850 violin estimated output, only around 575 exist today), you can see that for every genuine Strad, there are at least 2,000 German copies. Add to this the Czech and French copies (estimated Czech around 750,000 and French 500,000) you can see that for every Strad in existence, there are around 4,260 copies. This leaves a chance of your Grandfather's violin being genuine at around 0.02%. In actually fact, the chances are far less than this, since it is estimated that maybe only a couple 'soi distant' Strads are still out there, somewhere. Assuming that 1/3rd of the copies have been destroyed, leaving 1.6 million, this severely cuts your chances to only 1 in 800,000 or 0.00013% This, of course, is all academic, since copies bearing facsimile tickets have been around since well before 1880, and well after 1920. The Czechs didn't start inserting facsimile tickets until after c.1920, but especially after 1948, and continued to do so well into the 1980s. So, the maths is based purely on the lower end of the trade fiddle estimates... the truth could be far away from this, and hence giving an even smaller chance of your Grandfather's violin being genuine. If you can get some digital photos of it and email me them, I'll do my best to tell you what you have and whether you should consider following it up. All the best at Pharmacy School, Gordon

MichaelGuest 06/12/200516:03:33
historyIP: LoggedMessage:Gordon, When I found your page I googled it as do most I'm sure. It wasn't until I read the posts and posted myself before I looked through the rest of the site. The internet is an amazing invention. I believe it says that you are in Scotland. I think that is so cool I wish to go there myself some day. I would take great pleasure in attending a Celtic football game. I'm not much for the Scottish Hearts or the Rangers. My grandfather came from Scotland and my grandmother from germany. I live in Texas there is alot of german, scottish, and irish heritage here. My last name is Dean or Michael Owen Dean III i searched the internet and found a castle in Scotland that bares the name Dean Castle I like to believe that it is mine. Just kidding...enought about that i know you are a busy man. I didn't realize there was such a small chance of owning this rare instrument. I am not sure that is what he told me, but I am becoming ever so interested in finding the truth. I have recently talk with my father on trying to find the truth and having it looked at by an antique instrument appraiser. I appreciate your offer in helping me with this I will keep in touch with the pictures or in writing. Sincerely Michael

Gordon M BurnsGuest 06/12/200521:47:42
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Michael, I am a visitor here, as you are. The site is owned by a Scot, Graham Welsh, who owns the Violin Studio, Ayr, in Scotland, but although my ancestry is Scottish on both sides, I am based south of the border in England. As for football, I'm afraid I care little for a game that sees 22 men running after a ball and fighting because they can't have it! :o) Let me know how you get on, and good luck. Warmest regards, Gordon

Aaron ClayGuest 08/12/200508:22:15
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:or us USA way of saying football "soccer" i mean, really,who came up with that? For the whole stradavari thing, as Gordon said..99.99rep % are not real i just have one of his basses, but i am positive it is real since it has all the papers and everything. note: i thought it was 20 people crazily running after balls (FIFA)

ToniGuest 08/12/200511:01:38
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Aaron, I didn't realise your Strad was a bass! I assumed you had a violin :) "Soccer" comes from the term "Association Football", which distinguishes the game from "Rubgy Football" as rugby was known years and years ago. Cheers, Toni

Gordon M BurnsGuest 08/12/200512:27:11
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Sports fans, Thanks Toni, my good friend, for educating our American cousins on the finer arts of adult male ball-play. Basically, Soccer is a no-no with me, although I love to watch (and erstwhile participated) in 26 grown men running after an odd-shaped ball, and fighting because they couldn't get it. As they say, Rugby is a game, played by men, with odd-shaped balls! :o) Yes, I am a Rugby fan, of the Union code, of course, the only real code! Rugby League code is for complete wusses, and is somewhere between Union and American Football (American Football is, of course, very mild by comparison, and played only by those softies who wish they were hard enough to play a real game). Football, to me, means only one thing... Rugby Football! Sorry if I will now offend any of our American cousins, but Rugby Football is similar to American Football, but without the pansy padding and puffter helmets, the perceived super-macho image, and an offensive team and defensive team... in rugby, you just gotta go for it, and be prepared for what hits you (this can be up to 13 opposing players, all with the express intention of killing or maiming you)... and all this without Kevlar body armour or crash helmets! (we do have gum-shields, nowadays, though). Rugby is the REAL man's game, not one for those faint of heart-and-body American players, or something reliant on anything but skill, accuracy and speed. Sorry, American folks, but Rugby Union is the toughest sport on the planet, and one day, all American Football freaks should try it... sorting the men from the boys is what this great game is about! And whilst this sorting is taking place, we make a game of it, with a scoreline at the end. Brilliant! Oh, and by the way... I don't think that Strad actually made any basses! If you feel the need to watch some REALLY good sport, on a global scale, watch the Six Nations (played out by the toughest teams in Europe, of England, Wales, France, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy), and the Rugby World Cup, which includes the excellence of first class teams such as the South African Springboks, the Australian Kiwis, and, needless to say, the great New Zealand All Blacks! Now there's a game to follow! Swing low, sweet chariot; coming for to carry me home! Gordon

Aaron ClayGuest 09/12/200514:35:06
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:yes, I do not really enjoy american football as much as soccer, but i really dont get to see "rugby" very often, as quite frankly, they dont have that here :( ???? Stradavari did indeed make basses!

Gordon M BurnsGuest 09/12/200515:34:26
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Are we talking bass viols or contra-basses? As far as I know he never made what we would now call a contra-bass (or simply a bass). I will stand correction on this, but I seem to think that the modern bass developed from the bass viol too late for Strad to have made one. Regards, Gordon

Jeff ShooKGuest 13/1/200607:38:49
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Im sorry, but I have the same question and have not yet found an ansure. I am not interestad in the value, just some history. I know that this is a copy of some kind... Antonius Stradiuarius Cremonensis Faciebat Anno 17 No 8. I know you have ansured this and are not pleased dealing with the same ol bla bla..."PLEASE do a bit of their own research, by at least taking the trouble to read forgoing posts and educating themselves, before expecting others to waste their valuable time repeating that which has already been answered? Please?" If I could just get a short history, I'd be thankfull. Jeff Previous Note's... 24/3/2005 01:39:27 RE: stratovarius violin IP: Logged Message: What can you tell me about a violin with a label inside that reads: Antonius Stradiuarius Cremonensis Faciebat Anno 17 Gordon Guest 24/3/2005 02:43:11 RE: stratovarius violin IP: Logged Message: Don, Exactly the same as I've told umpteen people who have asked the same question! Many people on this board spend a lot of their valuable time answering the 'same old question'! We do it freely, without charge, and without even asking for thanks. A MESSAGE TO THOSE WHO HAVE THE 'SAME OLD QUESTION'... Before asking the 'same old question', could people PLEASE do a bit of their own research, by at least taking the trouble to read forgoing posts and educating themselves, before expecting others to waste their valuable time repeating that which has already been answered? Please? Regards Gordon

ToniGuest 13/1/200607:50:53
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Jeff, It is impossible for anyone to give you a history of your Strad copy; it's simply an anonymous factory violin. If you want to know about fiddle factories, there is already plenty of info here about them - just do another search. Regards, Toni

jerryGuest 13/1/200620:00:54
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:yes, could you tell me if my strat needs 4 strings or 5, i don't know if it's a banjo or a harp. thank you. jerry........

JenniferGuest 14/1/200616:11:13
Lyon and HealyIP: LoggedMessage:I have aquired a violin from a friend. There are two labels inside. The top label states Lyon and Healy: Maestro violin; Chicago 1920. Style 1031. However, this label covers another label that only shows "made in france." I have done some research with Lyon and Healy, they have not responded to my inquiry. I have also have hazarred to guess that it is manufactured in a French company. However, What i want to know has anyone heard of Lyon and Healy ever carrying violins or every restoring them? Thank you for your time.

Breck DuffinGuest 14/1/200616:47:09
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I have in my possession what may be a Stradivarius violin. The violin seems to be very aged, and it was my first when i started to play as a younger child. The inside label reads "Antonius Stradivarius Cremonensis Facciebat 1713, the 13 seems to be written in a type of old style calligraphy. The inside label seems to be very old as well. Im just wondering if this violin may have a certain value to it, and if it is a true work of art from Stradivarius, or if it is just a copy. And if that, what are the copies worth? It boasts an amazingly beautiful sound as well.

Gordon M BurnsGuest 14/1/200619:21:04
RE: Stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:The absolute minimum of research on this forum will tell you that it is not possible for it to be genuine. As for it boasting an amazingly beautiful sound, I find that instruments are totally incapable of boasting anything, although their biased owners very often boast that on their instrument's behalf. As to value, yes, they all have value, and whether it is £5.00 to £500 as a copy, or £500,000 plus as an original, only a luthier, valuer, connoisseur or appraisor will be able to shed light on it; certainly this cannot be done on a forum such as this. Regards, Gordon

Aaron Clay Guest 19/1/200610:42:44
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Thank you Gordon, Whereas it is Possible to find one, it is EXTREMLEY rare to find one. If someone else acually has a certificate of authentication, or has a professinal review of it, maybe then will someone acually care. Salutations, Aaron Clay, the presidents own.

Char Guest 23/1/200614:57:45
What do you recommend?IP: LoggedMessage:Hello Gordon, Aaron and Graham, I have done my research and read this entire forum, all that was available anyway, on this subject. Thank you for a great wealth of information and a good start on an education in violins. I have a question that I did not see addressed. What would you recommend as a good book that would give a history, pictures and all authentic markings for a true Strad as well as other violins of value? I am also interested in your personal preferences as to good top quality violins that are made today. Thank you again for sharing your vast knowledge with all of us. It has made for a very interesting read. Sincerely, Char

D-Man Guest 24/1/200600:16:09
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Well what are the fakes worth?
ToniGuest 24/1/200600:27:26
RE: stratovarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi D-Man, The quality of Strad fakes will vary enormously, from rubbish factory fiddles to decent-quality copies, and the only way to find out what a particular violin is worth is to have it appraised by a professional. Regards, Toni

Gordon M BurnsGuest 24/1/200609:24:52
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Hi Char, There are many specialist books around which show images of genuine instruments. Most of them are extremely expensive, and none of them tell you what to actually look for in order to determine one maker from another, or the points that are individual, ergo identifiable, to any particular maker. Apart from a very old, now out-of-print book on identifying violin origin (it only dealt with 'nationality', not individual maker, and left much to be desired) I know of nothing that would fill the bill. OK, you just gave me an idea! Must write a book on violin identification... this will, of course, probably sign my death warrant, as most appraisors have spent a lot of money (many thousands of pounds), and given many years of their lives to studying individual makers, and they would probably justify grouping together to hire a 'hit man' to finish me off. But hey, I could always write it under a pseudonym... that would really get them thinking! I can see it now "Violin Identification & Authentication" by Salman Rushdie! Perish the thought! Regards, Gordon

GerardoGuest 25/1/200611:49:01
StradiuariusIP: LoggedMessage:Pues no me van a entender pero estuve leyendo todo el historial y estuvo muy entretenido. Soy de México. I'm not a violin player but I spend a lot of time reading this board because I like the violin (how it sounds and I wish some day to play it). I'm interested in the Stradiuarius violins history, and all of you have been very helpfull (especially Gordon, who seems to know a lot about the violins). Someday a friend of mine told me that a violin player of here (Chihuahua, Mexico) who plays in the Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua Orchestra (a state University in wich I am) has a Stradiuarius, but now knowing what you have been writing about the Stradiuarius violins, I really don't think so. Keep writing all this enlightning information for those who does not know (including me, of course). Thank you all! I'll be waiting for more info. (I'm mexican, I'm not so good in english, hope you understand) Gerardo Castillo Garza.

rusGuest 27/1/200613:16:37
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:i wouldnt restore nothing, keep it in original state, I have a Stradiuarius violin, dated 1713, now, in 1713, only two were made. i got one of them. so all them 1713's you see on ebay, lol are copies, i've had this appraised and vauled, and I was told not to restore it. it would bring down the vaule a lot.

Gordon M Burns Guest 27/1/200613:38:23
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Rus, please get a life, or something nearly appraching a life! Firstly, if you think for even one fleeting second, that the house of Stradiuari made only two violins in 1713, you are very sadly mistaken. Secondly, I suspect the reason you were told not to restore your German fiddle factory made counterfeit, is because it is worth very little, and certainly less than it would cost to restore it. Any appraisor worth his salt, would never tell you that restoring a genuine Stradiuari wasn't worth it, or that it would reduce its value. Trust me on this one! Being a professional maker and restorer, I know about these things! Hey, I'll tell you what... you stop posting absolute 100% crap, and I'll stop finding fault and picking holes in it! Deal? Yes? Rus, poor deluded you, may be able to pull the wool over a few people's eyes, but you'll never pull the wool over the eyes of those who are in touch with reality! Trust me on this one, too! Now 'put up or shut up!' Produce the paperwork, or disappear into the background, just like the rest who claim to have 'the real thing'. Gordon

Aaron Clay Guest 27/1/200614:05:30
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Well, I am back from the Hilbert Theatre, and had a decent look at another Strad Violin, and The only difference between them was the date, and a very slight differentation of the signitures. (12 year difference). I would say, a Strad has a more reddish look, no split back, a italian/French sound, and not sitting in your grandma's closet. =) That said, unless you have paperwork for the instrument, it is a copy (worth 100$- 900$ aprox) I have a germen copy, decent sound quality, that sold for 600$ at a shop recently. Those with anything without paperwork, save it, its a nice violin, but not a Strad. With regards to Gordon & Others Aaron Clay. The Presidents Own.

Cynthia Guest 13/2/200612:12:56
Lyon & HealyIP: LoggedMessage:I have a Lyon and Healy, 1924 style 1031. I don't know it's worth. All the original pieces are there but it needs to be restrung. I don't know anything about violins, and I'm just not sure where to start. I had it appraised, but I don't trust the appraisal amount as it just seems too much. It has some kind of interesting striping pattern in the wood on the back. Does anyone have any suggestions? thank you, cynthia

Gordon M Burns Guest 13/2/200612:33:00
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:The 'interesting striping' in the wood will be naturally appearing figuring in maple, the wood traditionally used for the back, ribs and neck of a violin. It all depends on your appraisor's valuation, really. Bear in mind that some less than 100% honest ones will over-value a fiddle, since their fees are based on total valuation. The Lyon & Healy will be no more than a ticket inserted by (or on behalf of) the reseller. This name means nothing in making circles, so they will be the shop through which this fiddle was sold. Being otherwise anonymous, it will be a factory trade fiddle, and as such, it will be worth little. The 'style 1031' bit points to it being of inexpensive factory origin. Obviously, I have no idea what your appraisors valued it at, but I would place an absolute maximum of $1,000 US (£570 GB sterling) on something with a shop ticket, and no details of its origin. Regards, Gordon

Cynthia Guest 13/2/200613:23:15
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:thank you Gordon, actually the appraiser offered me $600 to buy it and told me it was worth around $1000. Mostly because it has the original bow and due to its condition being so well preserved. I just thought he was high, and as you said, trying to hit me with a large fee. It was my ex husband's great grandmother's...if it had been a $100 item, I was just going to give it away or sell it. As is, I suppose I'll put it back in it's little protective case and store it until perhaps my son can decide what he thinks should be done with it. Thank you for your help. Kind regards, cynthia

Aaron Clay Guest 14/2/200611:06:10
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Gordon, what is your approximation on a 1567 Andrea Amati violin? A friend offered it to me to buy, but I didnt notice TOO much difference between that and a Strad (haha). Just a thousand dollar amount. 1-5000 5000-10000 etc 10000-15000 15000-20000 Warmest Regards from Cold Indiana, Aaron Clay

Rus Guest 15/2/200614:45:38
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Gordon, wow, didnt mean to strick a nerve. I was just stating what I was told. and it isn't a German copy. on the back the name SEIDL is burned into it. you being the pro here I was going to ask you what your thoughts are on that. thx

Gordon M Burns Guest 15/2/200615:50:52
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:If it is branded SEIDL, it is as I first said, a German factory fiddle. If it is SEIDEL, it is still 99.99% a German factory fiddle. Whatever, it is branded it is German (all the Seidel makers were German, and most of them produced lower quality work, of factory grade). And my original reply was based on the lack of the SEIDL/SEIDEL information you have now provided. None of the family made violins with facsimile Strad labels inside, so even though they made less-than-desirable fiddles, it seems yours is a fake of one of the family's less-than-desirable work, so definitely making it factory made, of the lowest order. You didn't strike one of my nerves, but I suspect I just struck one of yours. Regards, Gordon

Rus Guest 16/2/200604:24:23
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:naa, you didnt strick a nerve. you kinda don't know what your talking about though. as seidl was a composser of the 1800's. I have documentation on that as well that is with the violin, that he owned it. you just proved to me that you really don't have a clue about what your talking about. enough is said about what I have, I know what I have. which was proven by professionals. Which, I understand your anger, you can see it in all your replys! sounds to me that you got screwed on a violin, and you assume everyone has a fake. that's cool, like I said, I understand. but you got to stop and think.... someone has to have a real one out there. but I guess someone like me that types on a web site cant be one?

Gordon M Burns Guest 16/2/200605:20:06
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:I think you must have me wrong, as some kind of bitter and twisted player who was stung by a sharp dealer or something. If so, you should take some time in looking around the various messages... No, indeed! I am a violin maker, restorer, and appraisor, with many years experience in my career. That is why I have not been, nor will I ever be duped by a fake fiddle - not even your fake fiddle. If the brand on the back is not intended to be the maker (and I can't think for one moment that since many of the family branded their names on the back, that the brand mark is intended to be anything other than the maker's name) it may be, as you claim, the name of a composer. So is it Johann Gabriel von Seidl, the lyricist/poet/composer but NOT VIOLINIST, or the conductor Anton Seidl (who was NOT a composer)? Both were around in the late 19th C. It matters not which one, because despite either being the case, then it most definitely won't have been owned by either of them. Fiddles with composer's names on them are quite commonplace, and very ordinary, all of them originating from German factories in the late 1800s. As for it having a chance of being a genuine Strad, there is not one person who knows anything at all about music, being in possession of a genuine Strad, would deface it by branding his own name into it... Please be in touch with reality on this point, if with nothing else. The paperwork that you have with it will be faked. You are wrong in your assumption that someone out there has to have a real one - all existing Strads are accounted for, and it is not possible to own one without knowing that you do (a brief search on this forum will tell you why). I am not angry, just bemused at how easily you and your so-called expert can be taken in by such spurious things which you are both obviously using as evidence for your case - evidence that would never stand up in Court. Your expert should be willing to place their reputation on the line by declaring it genuine, and then be prepared to suffer the ensuing ridicule that such a declaration would undoubtedly provoke.

Elmer ll Guest 18/2/200608:43:02
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Rus, I have to agree with Gordon a little bit, about explaining yourself a little better. however the lack of knowledge from gordon and rudeness has suprised me. but also have to strongly disagree with him, Not all Stads are accounted for. if you are such a violin freak, you'd know that. theres proof on that. You opened a light for me, maybe you misunderstood or was misdirected about only being Two of the violoins in 1713. Seidl had Two of them both made in 1713. Both were as real as you can get. believe it or not people, there are real ones out there. However Rus, I would try to learn how to post on the internet, you had me confused as well. Until you post about Seidl, which Gordon thinks he knows all about. Seidl had Two Stads, both from 1713. I couldn't tell you if he marked them or not. but it would'nt suprised me if he did. think about it for a second. back then, Stads weren't worth as much as they are now. and by marking them, would decrease the chance of someone else claiming it, if it was stolen.

Toni Guest 18/2/200609:34:32
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:A quick search on Google shows that there is a maker called Seidl in Markneukirchen today, and he makes Strad copies: Ekkard Seidl. I do wonder why people who claim that their violins have already been "authenticated by experts" should come onto the internet and ask for information about them!! I note, Rus, that a few weeks ago, on the 28th Jan 2006, you posted the following at another site: Hello, I'll make this as blunt and short as I can, so please excuse the quickness of this page. I've searched and searched on this violin, I keep running into dead ends. I have a violin that has a label in it, (I'm sure you've seen or heard many stories like this) but please help me if you can, I've tried contacting other people, but with no reply back. The label inside says Antonius Stradivarius Cremonensis Faciebat Anno 1713 Made in Germany. It also as a symbol inside of a circle, above the symbol it says Bruno, at the bottom of the symbol it has the Letter N.Y. which is spaced about 1/2 an inch. The hard case it came in has a label in it as well, which reads, This is a Genuine G.S.B Case (a few words are faded) then the next few words I can make out say, Violin Case made for the Money. (all that is on the left side of the label. In the middle of the label it has the words Original (at top), G.S.B (in middle) Improved (at bottom) Trade Mark. (is underneath) to the right it says, None genuine unless the impress of this trade mark is on the bottom of the case. Also, on the back side is a name ingraved Seidl, I'm thinking it is a previous owner or something. I've had an auction dealer and a few other people there tell me it was a fake and worth $500.00 due to the age. he also told me he'd give me $800.00 for the violin and for my trouble I've had searching for the information. (Red Flag there) I asked him why he'd offer me more then it was worth, he told me he was going to restore it which would cost him about $300 - $400 to do so, and the value would go up to about $2500.00. but it was He that was paying for it to get restored. I told him no, as I was walking away from him he started shouting out prices, after a few prices, it got up to the $2500.00. There I knew I had something. If anyone has any suggestions, comments, or information. please feel free to email me rusmingroover@yahoo.com Rusman (see http://stradivarius.blogstream.com/) ....I'm afraid that this is at odds with everything you have claimed in your post above? Maybe there is another Rusman out there with a "Seidl" Strad. Ah, coincidences eh? They never fail to amaze me! Best Regards, Toni

Gordon M Burns Guest 18/2/200611:32:24
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Thanks, Antonia Holmes :o) No coincidence, Toni... the email address gave it away! ROFLMAO The part that particularly amused me about Elmer's post, was the line... Not all Stads are accounted for. if you are such a violin freak, you'd know that. theres proof on that. Oh my! How in the name of logic can there be proof that undiscovered Strad violins lay undiscovered? If there was proof, they wouldn't be undiscovered, now would they? As Homer Simpson would succinctly put it... Doh! Forgive me if I appear a little naive here, but "I have evidence that undiscovered Strads exist" seems a little too rich for this luthier to accept (but there again, I tend to stay in touch with reality). May I refer you to my post headed "Did you win the Jackpot", available for logical analysis from the 'community' page. Many people have accused me of being rude. Almost without exception they are the ones who come to this forum and ask the 'same old question' or try to impress with a different flavour of bullsh*t... to these people, who think it's OK to expect everyone else to run around after them, wiping their backsides, and pandering to their every whim, I am often rather terse with my replies. On the other hand, the pleasure I get from helping genuine, realistic people with genuine, realistic questions is wonderful, and when they take their precious time to thank me for my imparting my knowledge and research, it is nothing short of the icing on a very lovely cake! So, we now have someone (Russ) who almost overnight moves from asking about a violin of which he apparently knows nothing, to being an authority, not only on the instrument, but also on the dubious paperwork that accompanies it, someone else (Elmer) who knows for definite (because of overwhelming evidence) that undiscovered Strads still exist, and someone else (Toni), who like me, is well in touch with reality and is well aware that the moon isn't really made of green cheese! And whilst on the subject of reality, Elmer, could you please quote your reference regarding the two fiddles owned by Seidl (and which Seidl it was who owned them). I think that you should understand, also, that even in Strad's lifetime he was well-known as a top-class maker. Unlike many others, who failed to make it until after they died, Stradiuari became very rich as a maker. His violins were collectable whilst he was still alive, and certainly by the late 1800s he was acknowledged as the greatest maker of all time. Although his instruments didn't start to really increase in value until after the 1939-45 war, he was famous enough in the late 1800s for anyone even remotely connected with music to know of his existence, and of the potential 'value' of his fiddles (although quite affordable by the rich and famous, the apparent low prices were still very high by standards then, when a well-made master violin was selling for a few pounds sterling). Even quite early in the 1800s, Paganini recognised the merits of a then much lesser-known maker, when he bought the 'Cannon' Guarneri 'del Gesu', a violin he cherished over anything made by Stradiuari, and the only one on which he played for the rest of his life. Facts are one thing... assumptions are another! I tend to deal in facts, since this is the best way to deal with the real world. Regards, Gordon

Gordon M Burns Guest 18/2/200612:50:28
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:AHA! I just took some time to read the 'Rus' post again... Made in Germany? And you think that Seidl would have been so proud to have owned a German production-line factory fiddle that he'd have branded his name on it? I don't think so! Made in Germany! Pathetic! Totally pathetic! I must have been asleep not to latch onto it the first time I saw it! As I said in an earlier post, Rus... Get a life! You are lying, not only to us, but to yourself! In an earlier post you claim it not to be a German copy, but on another site you quote the ticket as stating 'Made in Germany'! To be more than fair to you, I have had quite enough already of your duplicity (read LIES), so will not reply further to your obviously moronic postings. Rus, why do you feel the need to lie about the 'papers'? Personally, I think there is something terribly wrong in the character trait of someone who feels the need to tell lies in order to attract attention or to feel important in some way, but that's me the luthier, not me the psychologist! Perhaps if I was a psychologist, I'd be earning more than I am as a luthier, but maybe I'd become quickly bored with so many people coming my way, wanting their 15 minutes of fame, in much the way that you do! Now, Elmer... do you still support the wishful-thinking fantasist? I think not! Regards, Gordon

Rus Guest 19/2/200600:23:50
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Gordon, Wow, I must say. that for someone to tell someone to get a life all the time. maybe needs to look around themselves.... anyways.... last post from me.... I have what I have. if it is fake then it's fake, not to defend myself so I wont. it wont do no good. and I'm not going to set here and be rude with someone, you see Gordon, I have a life, and I have character. for which I'd never, no matter who or what the matter is about, call someone A liar, Pathetic, and to get a life. very uncalled for. oh well, like I said. it won't do no good. hope you find it in your heart gordon to be a little nicer to people.

Rus Guest 19/2/200600:40:41
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:one last thing, looking at your web site gordon, i'm impressed. and i'm sorry if i affended you.

Amber Guest 19/2/200603:34:50
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:It's clearly proven the professionalism of Gordon - NOT!

Gordon M Burns Guest 19/2/200611:40:52
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:One doesn't have to be bowing and scraping to be a professional, Amber; one only has to know about ones subject.

Aaron Clay Guest 20/2/200601:20:13
RE: stradivarius violinIP: LoggedMessage:Dear Gordon, Wheras I agree fully on your opinion, does it not make you, somewhat amused? When people do not read the forums (aka about 10 different posts on how "Made in Germany" does NOT make it real...Maybe if people would take the time to have a little background check on what they have vs. every fact, posts would not have ...so much...stupididy. Sincerly Aaron Clay